I remember now...

[dreamflower]

The DH and I have spent about a week now re-watching the movies (LotR, of course--what did you *think* I meant, LOL!) and now I am reminded of why I loved them.

I know that I've often found criticisms with them--they *do* have their flaws, after all, but here is a list of the things that I personally think PJ got completely and stunningly *right*:

1. The Shire--specifically that first long shot coming into Hobbiton. (That was the *first* time I teared up, and I am *not* one to cry at movies.)
2. Bag End, all of it, inside and out.
3. Ian McKellan’s Gandalf.
4. Ian Holms’ Bilbo.
5. Strider, sitting in the corner at The Prancing Pony.
6. Viggo Mortensen’s Aragorn.
7. That shot of Aragorn and Arwen on the bridge in Rivendell.
8. That long shot of the Fellowship cresting the ridge in Hollin.
9. The doors of Moria.
10. Gandalf’s whole scene at the Bridge with the Balrog--brilliant!
11. The Argonath.
12. Sean Bean’s Boromir--and most especially his battle to protect Merry and Pippin.
13. Andy Serkis’ Gollum.
14. Bernard Hill’s Theoden
15. Sam getting to see the oliphaunt. (I had honestly thought that a scene that would have to have been cut.)
16. Gandalf and Pippin cresting the rise to see Minas Tirith in the distance.
17. Pippin’s livery--absolutely perfect!
18. The charge of the Rohirrim
19. “For Frodo!”
20. All of Minas Tirith, bowing to the hobbits.

And most of all, Howard Shore’s magnificent score, through all three of the films!

And there were quite a few more little touches I loved, and some well done acting by a wonderful cast, not just the ones I mentioned specifically.

So, do I still have quite a few major nits to pick with PJ about the script? Yeah, I do--I listed those not very long ago at all.

Do I still love the movies? Yeah, to that, as well.

Comments

[elendiari22.livejournal.com]

I still love the movies! I haven't seen them in awhile, but they are always close to my heart. I wasn't introduced until they came out, you see: my best friend dragged me kicking and screaming to see FOTR (it was, at that time, really hard to get me to the movie theatre), and then it was love. I dragged everyone down into my obsession kicking and screaming, and it's even influencing my college degree. I think we can successfully blame Jackson for that, 'cause if I hadn't liked the movies I probably wouldn't have read the books.

That being said, I'm not quite sure how I like the extended cuts: some of the added scenes are awesome, but on the whole I think it throws the pacing off a bit.

I'll stop rambling now.

[dreamflower]

Sometimes when I get nit-picky, I tend to forget how much I loved them in the first place. I have to remind myself that I never expected perfection, and that I was stunned that PJ did as good of a job as he *did* do. But I don't ignore the warts--I waited 35 years for those movies to be done, and I need to remember how grateful I was when FotR came out! But then I read the books for the first time in 1967.

Extended cuts: I liked the majority of them, especially the scenes that gave us a bit more of Merry and Pippin--Merry's scenes in Rohan were really needed, I think. Also I was glad they showed the gifting in Lothlorien, and a few other small touches. Scenes I did *not* like were Haldir arguing before they entered Lorien--as you say, threw off the pacing there; the drinking "contest" with Legolas and Gimli was unnecessary; and I *most especially* did *NOT* like the scene where the W-k broke Gandalf's staff. Nope, sorry, PJ--that one was best left out, because it wouldn't have happened--if he'd still been "the Grey"? Maybe. But not with Gandalf the White, uh-uh. And as much as it made me grin to see Aragorn strike the head from that nasty Mouth of Sauron, that, too, didn't really work.

You can ramble in my journal, I don't mind.

[shirebound]

I agree with absolutely every one of these.

[dreamflower]

I'm not too terribly surprised at that, dear! (((hugs)))

[fantasy-fan.livejournal.com]

I think I'd add that lovely wordless scene at the end, where the four hobbits sit in the Green Dragon and toast each other as life flows around them. It points up how different they are now, all of them (even Sam approaching Rosie after his liquid courage) and sets up the 'you can't really go back' vibe for Frodo, all without a single word spoken.

[dreamflower]

Oh, that *is* a nice scene, it really is! But I couldn't keep going--I had to stop somewhere.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

That's one of my fave scenes toO! The music was perfect there too--i overplayed that so many times...that theme in the end of Track 17. :)
but yes, that knowing veteran feeling that they all have-- it was a wonderful scene PJ chose to include.

[surgicalsteel.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of these. And adore the movies.

[dreamflower]

*grin*

[white--gull.livejournal.com]

How you boiled it down to twenty I don't know! I agree completely with most....in fact all except #20! Merry and Pippin should have bowed to Frodo and Sam. And, I'll add one: Frodo's purity of spirit. (I know PJ got a few major details wrong about Frodo, but his purity is stunning.)

WG

[dreamflower]

Hmm...perhaps, but I think Frodo was uncomfortable enough having his King bow to him. Imagine his misery if his beloved cousins started to treat him that way?

EW did a masterful job showing that, didn't he?

[white--gull.livejournal.com]

I see your point, and I guess my real problem is in having Minas Tirith bow to Merry and Pippin. Merry & Pippin should have at least stepped back, to allow bows go to Frodo & Sam. Seriously, when I saw that part I wished I was standing behind Merry and Pippin so I could give them a little "knee to the back of the knees."

WG

[dreamflower]

Oh well, different strokes. But I don't think Frodo would have liked that.

[white--gull.livejournal.com]

I agree! He wouldn't have liked it. :( And as you've already pointed out, poor Frodo would already have been uncomfortable enough with his king bowing to him! Tolkien's paragraph was enough for me, with Aragorn bowing his knee to Frodo & Sam, and all those in attendance cheering. So wonderful! It's about the only time, in canon, that Frodo gets the praise he deserved.

WG

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

So many things to love about LotRs movies, and you've named a lot of my favorites too. Galadriel was also one of my favorites. Perilous, but beautiful. Cate can put so much into a smile or a gesture. The Emyn Muil scenes. Wonderful. Theoden rousing his riders. The charge of the Rohirrim, with that music swelling behind them. If that doesn't get your blood pumping I don't know what would. Frodo's face, in so many scenes, the most haunting images ever.

[dreamflower]

Oh, yes indeed, Galadriel was beautifully done--all except for that "glowing green queen" part--but the rest of the time, just wonderful. I was noticing her smile, the one she seemed to have just for Frodo, and how much compassion and understanding she managed to convey.

That close-up of Frodo's tear after Moria always draws a bit of moisture to my own eyes!

[shirebound]

That close-up of Frodo's tear after Moria

That was one of the shots that really impressed my mom.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

That close-up of Frodo's tear after Moria always draws a bit of moisture to my own eyes!
oh so Love. It tears me up thinking about it. lol
oh gosh i need to rewatch the movies sometime soon!

[voontah.livejournal.com]

I'm not generally one to tear up at movies, either, but that first sight of Hobbiton still chokes me up a bit. And the scene from one of the initial teasers, where the Fellowship is coming around the rock, still gets my heart pumping like it was the first time I saw it. I was leary of how the movie might turn out, but I felt that the fact that I could identify each member boded well for the casting, at least.

[dreamflower]

I was stunned. It was so like my own vision of the Shire, it was as though PJ had picked my brain! The first view of Minas Tirith was also a moment like that.

I too, was leary, though hopeful. I was not let down, not really, though, as I said, I can't completely ignore the warts.

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

Oh... yes, I agree with all of them except maybe #20. When I saw the shot of the Fellowship cresting the rise in Hollin in the first ever preview for the movie I saw, I got chills all over and my husband leaned over and said "They're gonna do it RIGHT!"

Theoden rousing the Rohirrim, and then the charge, *still* makes me tear up, every time. One you didn't mentin was the shots of Henneth Annun and the Forbidden Pool. I was shocked when I saw those places, because they were familiar to me - they looked just like what I had pictured them in my mind. I was amazed that he got it so right, but I guess a lot of credit goes to Tolkien's superb description.

I agree about the pacing of some of the extended shots, but one set that I loved and wished were in the theatrical version were Eomer discovering Eowyn on the battlefield, and then sitting by her side in the Houses of Healing. I know it's not exactly how it was in the books, but Karl Urban did such a good job expressing the emotions I think Eomer would have been feeling. Of course, I love all the Houses of Healing scenes in the books, and the ones they shot for the movies.

I agree that there are things I disagree with about the movies, things I don't like even, but on the whole, given the constraints of translating such a work into film... he did a brilliant job. And Howard Shore did too.

[dreamflower]

I was amazed that he got it so right, but I guess a lot of credit goes to Tolkien's superb description.

Absolutely. There's no other way to account for the fact that so many readers of the books had similar experiences--of seeing on the screen exactly what they'd imagined.

While I would rather have had Cormallen, I thought the bowing was an acceptable substitute. And I don't mind that *all four* were included in the bows--they all had accomplished something remarkable, and Frodo would not have cared to be singled out.

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't have a problem with *all four* being included either. All four of them provided tremendous service, from Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor to destroy the Ring, to Merry's assistance in the destruction of the Witch King, and Pippin being instrumental in saving their Steward.

No, my problem is more in the execution of it. Something about the expressions on the hobbits' faces and the way the camera dwells on it just seems jarring to me. I think I heard in one of the commentaries or special features that that scene was actually filmed later, and they were looking out at nothing, and either that comes across to me, or knowing that coloured my impression of it, but I remember even in the theater when I saw it I was uncomfortable with it. Let's just say I'm fine with the theory of it happening, I just didn't care so much for how the scene turned out.

[dreamflower]

For me, I always thought their expressions showed that this was not something they were expecting, and that *they* were a bit uncomfortable with it happening--given the modest nature of hobbits. And the enormity of what they'd done would have just hit them.

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

OH OH OH... I forgot one! The entire scene from Gandalf confronting the Balrog, to his fall and the Fellowship's reactions, Boromir catching Frodo as he tries to run back, to the scene where they come out onto the mountainside and collapse in grief... Pippin... Legolas... Frodo... and poor Aragorn having to hold it together and get them moving again. The slow motion... the music... Stunning in its power.

[dreamflower]

Yes, indeed! That was a powerful sequence of events--the best, really, I think out of all three movies!

[periantari.livejournal.com]

That was an awesome scene--the music there just cemented its greatness. :)

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

"For Frodo" indeed! Er...and all the rest of your list.

I think PJ made some changes and I respect most of them and feel that it's a bit like fanfiction...he got the "spirit" of the story oftentimes even if it wasn't strictly "canon". And I feel like I'm in Tolkien's Middle-earth whenever I watch them. *sigh* You've made me long to watch all three movies again! :-)

[dreamflower]

Actually, I think it *is* fanfiction. Fanfiction on a grand and glorious scale, and slightly AU. and incredibly well-done overall.

And yes, he definitely got the "spirit" of things right. I suppose that if he had not got so much right, I wouldn't quibble over the things I feel he got wrong. I certainly don't give a flip about all the horrible things in *Bakshi's* version--nothing much could be done to that to fix it.

But with PJ's version, it's like it's really great, and I want to tweak at it to make it even better. Wouldn't it be lovely, to have been his beta?

*imagines self pointing out that Gandalf couldn't possibly have planned to meet the hobbits in Bree...*

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

I was at an LJ moot where we watched the Bakshi version and shrieked with laughter the whole time...yep, not a lot that could be fixed.

My biggest irritation in PJ's version was not having Frodo lift his sword against the Ringwraiths at the Ford...

[periantari.livejournal.com]

My biggest irritation in PJ's version was not having Frodo lift his sword against the Ringwraiths at the Ford...

::still angry with that::

That is why i watch Bakshi-- (though he messed up the line-- should've been "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair..." but Bakshi's Frodo said "For the Shire or something like that. ::rollseyes::)

[dreamflower]

Well, given that PJ had him nearly dead by that point, and that Arwen was saving the day.

The main problem all along with PJ's interpretation of Frodo/the Ring was that he had made the Ring far more powerful from the start than it was in the books. Book-Ring really did not begin to gain in power until after Lothlorien, and was only at full strength at the end. And book-Frodo had far more strength of will all along, as well.

But movie-Ring was almost at full strength for the whole time. That's what colored the characterization of movie-Frodo, and made him seem weaker than he was.

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point. I had never thought about that, but you're absolutely right. The Ring was much more powerful for Frodo at the beginning. It seemed like it was almost nothing for Bilbo, except for a glitch here and there when he got frantic about not being able to find it and of course the whole not finding it easy to give it up. But the minute Frodo had it, it was all burning eyes. You know, I'm one of the few people who doesn't mind Frodo having a slightly more vulnerable characterization as long as he showed his strength and not necessarily in a physical way. Like I loved how PJ had him solve hte riddle at Moria...

But all the same, I would have loved to see Frodo, even if Arwen was there, keeping him safe and getting the river riled up, lift his sword against the Ringwraiths...with his very last strength. :-)

didn't see these comments...

[periantari.livejournal.com]

That's what colored the characterization of movie-Frodo, and made him seem weaker than he was.
Truthfully, as much as I love Lij as Frodo, i wished that he would have counterered that portrayal HAD HE read the book... Dramatization is good but not to the effect that PJ had Frodo succumb to the Ring. ::hates Osgiliath scene:: :/

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

*giggles at the idea of PJ needing a beta*

YUP... it's always better with a beta, and you'd have been GREAT!!

I believe Christopher Lee played that role to some extent but...

*walks off to the showers giggling*

[dreamflower]

Well, I know there were three people writing the script, but really, they did need someone to occasionally smack their hannies and tell them "no".

[lindaleriel8.livejournal.com]

I agree with these, and may I add that the little bit with the fireworks dragon was fun? I thought the fireworks would be shortened and the dragon not shown at all, so I was very, very happy to see the dragon!

[dreamflower]

Oh, I loved the fireworks dragon! It was *so* like what I'd always imagined--another scene that seemed as though PJ had read my mind!

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

I would also add Sean Astin as Sam. :D

But... Well, you know my opinion on the matter. ;)

[dreamflower]

Casting was another thing PJ did well. He chose actors, for the most part, who were seasoned, but not at the top of the box office, and mostly character actors instead of "leading men" types.

I do. And sometimes I agree with you; but sometimes I'm reminded why I loved them to begin with. And let's face it--there are a good many people who could have done (and even *did* do) a worse job.

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

I do really try sometimes to remember why I liked them in the first place. But I inevitably get to ROTK and I get ticked off all over again! LOL Someday, I might be able to watch Fellowship again, but the others, I doubt it. I did try watching TTT actually, the last time it was on TBS, figuring it can't really be nearly as bad as I was remembering. I happened to click on right when the Three Hunters narrowly escaped detection by the near-sighted Rohorrim by two whole seconds. *rolls eyes* Yay, that attempt didn't last very long. :{

I love the movies too.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

I have so many to add...including the Fall of Sauron, Breaking of the Fellowship where you see Frodo and Merry coming to a mutual understanding and then BOromir's death scene was done very well too-- Aragorn and his dialogue there always brings tears to my eyes.
THe Marching of the ENts to Isengard is the most powerful scene in TTT as well as when Aragorn and THeoden charge out of Helm's Deep.
Grey Havens--always gets me... Though i wished the line from Frodo: "It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others= may keep them." was includedc too.

There was a lot that done right but also i could see a lot of criticism come especially for the third film where i thought it was the most "HOllywood-ized" movie out of the three. Fellowship has my heart, being the most like the book, i feel-- (I hate Ford of Bruinen with ARwen there instead of Frodo resisting till the end. Gosh i can always vent about that.)

I love the movies a lot but the books have my heart a little bit more.
:)

Re: I love the movies too.

[dreamflower]

Yes, I think you will notice probably, that most of my favorite scenes come from Fellowship.

There were a lot of powerful scenes throughout the trilogy, but the ones that resonated most for me were the ones where it seemed as if my own inadequate imagination had somehow come to life.

And the *MUSIC*! I think if I were to fangirl anyone connected to the films, it would be Howard Shore!

Re: I love the movies too.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

And the *MUSIC*! I think if I were to fangirl anyone connected to the
films, it would be Howard Shore! lol me too! I almost met him once when he came to NJ to be with John Mauceri while he conducted the LotR symphony-- i *almost* met him but pity i was late going to the LotR Symphony--- that event was amazing-- to hear LotR soundtrack live was incredible.

[lilybaggins.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh, the nostalgia from reading this post... it's been a bit since I've put the movies in (well, a "bit" relatively speaking---probably not long for "normal" folks!) and I really have had the urge to watch all three again soon.

I so agree with all of your numbers up above. I can't even add to it because there are just TOO many things I love about the movies that I'd be going on all day. Yes, there were some things I disliked, and some characterization I had trouble with, but on the whole, the movies were glorious.

I loved the books dearly and read them decades ago, as you did, but the movies are what brought me here, and so they're incredibly dear to me. I see them as a sort of AU-universe to the books, really, as I still can't read the books and picture the movie actors.