Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings--very spoilery!!!

[dreamflower]

It seems to me that there are an awful lot of parallel characters between Harry Potter and LotR. On of them jumped out at me immediately when I read DH, but there are a lot of others… (cut for spoilers!!!)



HP=LotR

This first one came to me instantly, when I was reading DH:

Neville=Fredegar Bolger (the friend who was left behind to become the leader of the home front resistance)

And this one, fairly obvious, re-occurred to me in a discussion with surgicalsteel

Dumbledore=Gandalf ( a *lot* like Gandalf--there are a great many things Gandalf and Dumbledore have in common!)

So then danachan and I were talking on the phone, and we came up with the following:

Harry= both Frodo (self-sacrificial elements) and Aragorn (leadership) combined (both of them were “Chosen Ones” in their own ways, as well)
Ron=Sam (loyal friend) a fairly obvious choice
Hermione=both Merry and Pippin (Merry for long range planning and knowledge and Pippin for intuitive understanding, both of which Hermione excelled at.) (This was danachan’s thought, and it seemed very appropriate to me.)
Hagrid=Bilbo! ( think about it: the one who comes and rescues the orphan child from an uncomfortable situation, and who loves him very much!) (Also, thought Hagrid could also be Beorn, as well.)
Fred and George=Legolas and Gimli (okay, it’s a bit of a stretch; but I could see Fred and George enjoying the “counting game” at Helm’s Deep! And I could see Legolas and Gimli admiring Fred and George‘s antics in OotP.)
Snape=Boromir (the one who betrays the hero, yet dies a hero himself in the end)
Ginny=Arwen (though Ginny’s a lot more active than Arwen!)
Tonks=Éowyn (Tonks is pretty tough--she’d have made a great shield-maiden)
Trelawney=Ioreth (she spouts a lot of nonsense, but also the truth once in a while!)
Molly Weasley=Rose Cotton (mother figure, and a lot stronger than she appears)
Cornelius Fudge=Denethor (the paranoid politician, afraid that someone is out to get his job! Also, all too willing to use the Enemy‘s methods to defeat the Enemy…)
Remus=Faramir (honorable and wise and misunderstood)

And then after we got off the phone, I thought of these:

Voldemort=Sauron, of course!
Lucius Malfoy=Saruman (though he doesn’t have Saruman’s fate in the end.)
Kreacher=Gollum? (though Kreacher was ultimately redeemed, and Gollum was not.)
Dursleys=Sackville-Baggins (that one’s pretty obvious too, though we never see an Otho as despicable as Vernon.)
Gríma Wormtongue=Peter Pettigrew, Wormtail (that one’s kind of obvious, also)
James and Lily Potter= Drogo and Primula Baggins (also kind of obvious; and if Harry is a combination of Frodo-Aragorn, then I suppose the case could be made they are also Arathorn-Gilraen)

Some we couldn’t figure out:

HP

Sirius
McGonagall (we talked about her possibly being Galadriel, but that’s *really* a stretch, I think, and doesn‘t quite work out)
Luna
Dobby
Draco
Mr. Weasley
Mad-Eye Moody
Cho Chang


LotR

Tom Bombadil and Goldberry
Elrond
Éomer
Théoden
Galadriel
Celeborn
Beregond
Bergil
Gaffer Gamgee
Treebeard




So, really, does anyone think these are valid/invalid or just a long reach? Would you change any of them? Have you thought of any more obvious or less obvious that we missed? None of them are *exact* equivalents, of course--several of them had different fates. Still, it seems that cases could be made for the parallels drawn here.

Comments

[gayalondiel.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit concerned that the natural follow-through, shipwise, is that either Sam and Merry/Pippin are a threesome, or Ron is going to have 13 children with his mother...

*grin*

[danachan.livejournal.com]

Barbara and I are so LOLing right now, over the phone. :D

[dreamflower]

Your comment came while we were talking, and made us both howl! Oh my word! I wasn't even *thinking* of 'shippiness! LOLOLOL!

[elandulin.livejournal.com]

I think Master's theses will be written someday on the connections between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings! I don't dispute any of your choices, though I would say there are some characters who are composites, and considering the derth of women in LOTR, it will difficult to find too many female parallels before you run out of women on the LOTR side! Molly Weasley, while the mother of many like Rose, is also a warrior of considerable power--much like Eowyn! And Tonks, while a warrior, also plays an important as wife and mother, much like Gilraen.

The lists go on and on. JK Rowling studied the classics and myth in her college years, and she has done much the same thing in her books as Tolkien did in his (and George Lucas, to a lesser degree did in Star Wars)--she has taken all the archetypes and fashioned a new myth, a new fairy tale, in our own time, right before ours eyes.

This is for me significant; I just find it thrilling. There was a time when I thought all the great stories had been told long ago, back in the Dark and Middle Ages, but what I have found in the last 30 years is that in the hands of genius they can be remade. Or put another way, as Tolkien did, they are all the same story, just going on and on through time with new people and new challenges to face.

[dreamflower]

Very insightful!

Yes, several of the characters *are* composites! I especially think that Harry is *both* Frodo *and* Aragorn.

Like Frodo, he is destined to sacrifice himself in order to achieve the goal of defeating a Dark Lord. And like Aragorn he also needs to accept his destiny as a leader in order to defeat the same Dark Lord.

There are a few who have the genius necessary to use archetypes without turning them into cliched stereotypes--JRRT was one, and so was JKR, though I do not find her quite his equal with language and story, she certainly qualifies in the matter of characterizations and world-building.

[elandulin.livejournal.com]

You know, there's something rather Boromir-ish about Sirius Black, though I can't quite line up the similarities. I suppose the big one (other than charisma!) is the dreadful family background. And they are guys who seem to figure things out just a little too late....

I agree that JKR is not Tolkien's equal in language, though you know if she was she would never have succeeded in getting published in the current literary environment. God forbid one should have to think and read at the same time!

[lily-the-hobbit.livejournal.com]

Oh, that is lovely - and very true in the matter of Dumbledore-Gandalf, Neville-Fredegar, Harry-Frodo, and Ron-Sam. I agree with Pettigew as well. I thought that when I first heard his nickname... Wormtongue and Wormtail would definitely have been good friends. As for Molly Weasley, well... Rosie is fine but for me she was always the kind of woman I imagine Bell Gamgee must have been. Big family, no money, lots of chaos.... though 13 Gardner children make even more chaos.


Sirius might be Saradoc... the surrogate father/family, the advisor in the background (even though Saradoc was never mentioned as such I still picture him that way). From the advisor side I could also see a connection with Galadriel, though that would be quite a stretch as well.


Draco as Lotho Sackville-Baggins as antagonist and grudger of the hero. Both had turned to the dark side and both learned their lesson in the end.

[dreamflower]

I just don't find an HP character who truly fits as Galadriel; as for Sirius, he could split the character of Bilbo with Hagrid...

Draco as Lotho? I must admit, he's more effective in that role than Dudley.

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

I had also seen the Neville=Fredegar connection as I read DH.

And in reading your entry I got an answer to one of your 'leftovers' based on something I saw when I watched OotP. (A bit movie-verse for LotR here) As I watched OotP I was struck with the similarity between Frodo's (movie) reaction when Gandalf falls into the pit, and Harry's reaction when Sirius falls through the curtain in the Dept of Mysteries (definitely book-verse). They are both stunned, caught up by someone nearby and kept from going after the lost one. So, in this sense, Sirius is both like Gandalf to Harry, in that he provides a source of information and protection, and like Bilbo to him, in that family connection. Even though they aren't related, Harry connects to Sirius as his "family," the one he would choose to live with if he was given his choice.

I like your Snape=Boromir, Remus=Faramir and even your Trelawney=Ioreth comparisons too. I'm just glad that Tolkien didn't kill off Faramir!

Interesting thoughts!

[dreamflower]

Yes, I can see that he could easily also be a Bilbo figure for Harry, just as easily as Hagrid.

Harry's grief at losing him certainly would resonate with Frodo's grief for Gandalf, but I still think that Dumbledore is much more the Gandalf figure.

I'm glad he didn't as well! As I said, many of them had different fates--I was mainly thinking of their *function* in the story, and in relation to Harry.

[fell-beast2.livejournal.com]

Don't forget Evil!Locket = Evil!Ring.

[dreamflower]

Evil!Horcruxes, anyway! At least Voldemort tried to split his McGuffin up, so he didn't have all his eggs in one basket!!

[rena-librarian.livejournal.com]

Hahaha... you made me think of this:

[dreamflower]

ROTFL!! *That* is so apropos!! What a neat icon!

[gentlehobbit.livejournal.com]

Oh my goodness! You don't know me, and this response is a *long* time after, but I must just say how much I adore your icon! Would it be possible for me to use it? I would credit you, of course!

I know, of course, that many icons are not for sharing, so if you don't want me to use it, I will still adore it from afar!

:D

[rena-librarian.livejournal.com]

Actually, I didn't make it, it was made for me. :) But feel free to snag, it wouldn't be the first time it's been passed along. Credit thehobbitwaffle as the maker.

[gentlehobbit.livejournal.com]

*snerk*

My friend and I were having a conversation about this very thing last night. I even had the stirrings of an HP/LotR crossover (well, perhaps not a real crossover, but rather one where HP characters discuss LotR characters). But you've delved deeper into different characters and trumped anything I'd have come up with.

Some of the pairings *are* a bit of a stretch, I think, but I had a lot of fun reading your takes on them. I'd be inclined to say that Hagrid is closer to Beorn than Bilbo, perhaps with a bit of Butterbur thrown in -- the caring but clumsy helper. OK, maybe a dash of Bilbo thrown in. ;)

I don't think Harry really has an uncle/father-figure equivalent. If anything, I think the closest thing would be Dumbledore who is already startlingly like Gandalf as he is to Frodo, especially given Deathly Hallows.

Fun! Thanks for this! :)

[gentlehobbit.livejournal.com]

Hang on!

Sirius Black is Bilbo! Except that he was the Bilbo that wasn't allowed to happen. And he bequeathed his house to Harry just as Bilbo did to Frodo. There you go!

:)

[dreamflower]

Actually, you could be right--perhaps *both* Hagrid and Sirius were Bilbo!

After all, if Harry can be two characters in one, no reason Hagrid and Sirius can't combine and make one character into two!

[dreamflower]

Oh, you know, that could be a cute story: Hermione and Harry talking about LotR, and perhaps trying to persuade Ron to read it! I would be fairly certain that most of the Muggleborns or half-bloods at Hogwarts *would* be familiar with LotR! Can't you just see the discussion in the Gryffindor Common Room? ("A Muggle story? You want me to read a Muggle story? And what kind of name for a wizard is Gandalf, anyway?")

In his nature, Hagrid is like Beorn; I was thinking in terms of his relationship to Harry--he *is* the one who took him away from his stressful early life and introduced him to Hogwarts, just as Bilbo took Frodo away from his stressful memories in Buckland and brought him to Bag End. But of course, plot-wise, they do not fill the same function at all.

[lily-the-hobbit.livejournal.com]

"A Muggle story? You want me to read a Muggle story? And what kind of name for a wizard is Gandalf, anyway?"

*LOL*
I can just picture that!

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

VERY interesting! :-)

Draco = Lotho?

[dreamflower]

You know, Draco is much more of a Lotho-type than Dudley--although in Harry's relationship, Dudley does fill the role (nasty cousin). But Dudley doesn't really *do* anything, whereas Draco does...

[grey-wonderer.livejournal.com]

I don't go with the Dumbledore=Gandalf because by the time I finished Deathly Hallows I was less than fond of Dumbledore. I'd had serious issue with him in books four and five but Deathly Hallows finished it for me. I saw him as too controlling and the sort who asked too much of everyone. With Gandalf there was regret at what Frodo must do but with Dumbledore I didn't think he regretted putting Harry in danger at all. And what he allowed Snape to suffer was unforgivable.

I do agree with the Freddy=Neville connection.

Can you tell I was less than happy with the final book?

[dreamflower]

Well, Gandalf is clearly a *better* person than Dumbledore, I think. But plotwise, yeah, they do have the same function. Just think about it--both of them are secretive and manipulative and don't tell the people they are working with anymore than they can help; both of them are undoubtedly against the respective Dark Lords, and are willing to sacrifice both themselves and the people they love to bringing said Dark Lord down. I do agree that Gandalf seemed to show more compassion and more regret than Dumbledore.

I was not *un*happy with it. But then I did not go into it with any particular hopes or expectations, other than a few vague speculations...JKR's just not the writer JRRT was, but still the books will stand as a very great achievment.

[grey-wonderer.livejournal.com]

She is a very talented writer but I guess I just didn't enjoy losing faith in Dumbledore and having some of my favorite characters die off. Then the bit with the horcruxes was such a steal from Tolkien that it was difficult to let that go.
The power of the RING Dumbledore wore when he shouldn't have slowly killed him?!
The horcrux on a CHAIN had a nasty effect on those close to Harry and caused Boromir, er, Ron to get nasty and desert Harry in favor of going to the White City, er, Gull Cottage.

Too much of a steal on the horcrux front and then if all else fails, let "The Lady of the Lake" bring you the sword! hehehe

[dreamflower]

Well, really, you aren't going to find much in the way of modern fantasy that *doesn't* steal from JRRT--sometimes even more blatantly (Sword of Shannara, anyone?)

But it was inevitable, because aside from the fact that it's clear she's read JRRT, they both were educated about some of the same sources in medieval literature.

The idea of a McGuffin that contains the power of the Bad Guy, and can destroy him is as old as dirt.

My main problem with the book was that it was too hectic--it was nearly a non-stop roller coaster ride. That's fine for a movie, but in a 749 page book, you need a breather once in a while! And while I think the deaths of some of the major characters made the story more realistic, I have my doubts that they made it *better*! She promised a "blood bath", which I think was in some ways uncalled for. Yes, characters did need to die--but not necessarily *those* characters, nor *that* many of them! That was something else JRRT knew. Among the Good Guys, Boromir and Theoden die. There were several others as well but not major ones. Having Pippin die at the Black Gate would have been more realistic--but it would *NOT* have made for a better or more satisfying story, as JRRT knew, when he made the decision not to do that.

[grey-wonderer.livejournal.com]

I agree with Tolkien's way of doing things in regard to his characters. The strange thing for me is, LOTR is an adult novel but Harry Potter is considered to be children's literature in the same way that The Hobbit is more of a children's book. Is it just me or do you think it odd that more of the main characters die in the children's novel?

I would have thought too that she wouldn't want a repeat of Harry's childhood but she puts Lupin's child in the very same situation by taking out both parents. I saw no reason for that whole storyline. Harry convinces Lupin not to run off and leave his child, to be there for him and to raise him and then Lupin and Tonks run out on the child in order to fight the great battle. I should have thought that at least one of them would have stayed behind. It makes Harry's talk with Lupin earlier pointless really.

See I had so many issues with this book.

Anyway, I am very glad that Hobbits are so sturdy and that Pippin did not die or even become injured in a lasting way because of his battle with the Troll. The Hobbits went through enough in losing Frodo eventually and coming to grips with the events in the Shire. If they had lost Pippin I think that would have been too much. (It would have been too much for me at least. LOL)

[ansostuff.livejournal.com]

I've thought of some of these, but sicne I read the books in Norwegian some of the names are unfamiliar to me and I haven't read the last book so I can't say. Hagrid/Bilbo is a really nice thing to think about, also Dumbledore/Gandalf. But've thought of Ron as having parts of both Sam but also Merry, but then Sam and Merry did have some things in common. I don't see anything Pippin in Hermine but I do see Merry in her. I don't know where Pip would fall in, perhaps in Fred ang George?

[dreamflower]

No, I don't see Pip as Fred and George. Pippin's strength was intuition--the knowledge of when to trust someone, and an insight into their feelings; that's what I see in Hermione, in addition to her "book-learning", she's also a very good judge of character--just like Pippin!

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

I would agree with Sirius being Bilbo, and Draco being Lotho. Dudley seems more of a Ted Sandyman-type character - hides behind his parents, though he does redeem himself in the end, whereas Ted does not.

The One Ring - the Horcruxes, the Hallows, and the Invisibility Cloak. :D

[dreamflower]

Definitely, the more I think of it, the more I go along with Draco as Lotho for his active role, while Dudley simply filled Lotho's role on the Family Tree.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

maybe a person should just reread LotR....:P

::will come back when i finish HP7::