How evil was Lotho?

[dreamflower]

Anyone who has read very many of my fics *knows* I have a very strong antipathy to Lotho Pimple, self-styled "Chief" of the Shire. The last couple of weeks though, I've been having a very interesting debate wtih a gentleman on the rec.arts.books.tolkien/alt.fan.tolkien newsgroups on the subject.

He seems to think Lotho was simply doing what he thought of as "good business", and that as soon as the ruffians arrived, they took over and were responsible for all the wickedness that took place afterward.

We've just about argued to a standstill.

He's pretty entrenched in his position, as am I. But I'm wondering if anyone else sees this as a likely scenario? Was Lotho just a victim, like the other hobbits?

(Not bloody likely. But anyway...)

Comments

[shirebound]

I've always felt great sympathy for Lotho! He was teased as a kid (and adult) with a nickname he must have been aware of ("Lotho Pimple"), which would make anyone antagonistic and wanting to "get even" if his chance ever came. He grew up with two people (his parents) who felt resentful, underappreciated and snubbed by Bilbo, which must have rubbed off on him also. I was sorry he didn't get a chance to redeem himself in the end, like his mother did.

[dreamflower]

I'm afraid I've never had much sympathy for him. I never thought of the nickname as being something he grew up with--I always thought it was something the hobbits came up with after he decided he was "Chief".
Granted, his parents were nasty pieces of work as well, but I don't see that as an excuse.

The thing is, though, you are not denying that he did anything wrong (as this other person does) you are just saying there are some mitigating circumstances in his life. This other person maintains that all Lotho did was make some poor business decisions.

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

My thought on Lotho was that he was a greedy and (in some ways) rather stupid hobbit. Being raised by Lobelia, who was obsessed with getting more than she had, must have twisted his priorities a lot. I think he put the acquisition of power and money ahead of moral and ethical decisions, thus leading him to come into contact with people who were truly evil and able to manipulate him into betraying the Shire.

The sense that I get is that even Lotho realized what he'd done by the end, but it was too late to undo it, and by then there were too many ruffians running loose in the Shire, so he couldn't back down. And then Saruman showed up and it was all over.

So I suppose I don't see him as being an embodiment of evil, such as Sauron was. More just a stupid, self-serving hobbit whose actions led to a place even he didn't anticipate. While he is contemptible and hatable, I don't think he's truly evil.

[dreamflower]

I tend to use the word "evil" I suppose in a slightly different way than many. "Evil" does not have to be *pure* evil, or the worst evil. But I do think that anyone motivated by malice, as to all evidence, Lotho was, is "evil" to a certain extent.

Lotho was stupid and greedy. But he was also malicious, and to me that makes him at least somewhat evil.

And, yes, they went a lot further, and did a lot worse than Lotho expected them to--but they'd never have gotten anywhere without him.

[ansostuff.livejournal.com]

I`m not sure how evil he was, I haven`t really thougth about it, but I say he played a part more than being a victim. :)

[dreamflower]

Definitely.
I don't say he wasn't a victim at all, but he was not a complete dupe, he was not held prisoner the whole time (that would have had to have been from shortly after New Year, when the Men began to come in until his demise at the hands of Worm, no sooner than two weeks before the Travellers returned.)
I mean, that's just ridiculous!
I think the signal that he had finally lost control of things was when they arrested Lobelia.

Killing time at school

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

I think it's a bit of both. He took the initiative and started it all, but then the Men showed up and later Sharkey and completely took over from him. I've often wondered if he wasn't seduced by Saruman in some way. There had to be some sort of interaction between the two at some point, prior to Saruman's arrival in the Shire after the War, or at least, I have always thought so. Just what that interaction is or how it came about, I have no idea, but I've been noodling over it for awhile now. I might eventually come up with something for a story, but that will require research and far more time than I have right now.

Tolkein never writes any of his characters (with the exception of Melkor, Sauron and the Ring) as completely good or completely evil, they have mixtures of both. It's the same with Lotho. I think it's just the jealousy factor coming into play, plus his parents and the way he was raised by them. We all know those kinds of parents and they don't generally raise well adjusted children.

So, to put it simply, I agree with your friend. Lotho played his part, like everyone else, and he paid the ultimate price for it.

Re: Killing time at school

[dreamflower]

Killing time is always good.

The thread is on the LOTR CotW, Book 6, Chapter 8,"The Scouring of the Shire". You are saying basically what I mean, that Lotho *is* evil, but not pure evil, like Saruman and Denethor, he has fallen. He did lose control over the Men and to Sharkey, *but* he *had* control in the first place, and he didn't mean the Shire any good by bringing the Men in.

This person is saying that Lotho never meant any harm, that all of it was the Men, and that the part about Lotho claiming to be Chief, etc, was all lies by the Men. He even says that Lotho had been dead for a long time, refusing to believe what Farmer Cotton said about his being seen "two weeks or so ago." He says that is "hearsay".

According to Unfinished Tales, Saruman had been having business dealings among the Bracegirdles in the South Farthing for a very long time. Certainly he did what he could to corrupt hobbits. But that means Lotho *was* in fact, corrupt, and not an innocent victim.

I'm wondering now about the Bracegirdles, and what must have been promised to Lobelia...

[obeliamedusa.livejournal.com]

I do think of Lotho as motivated mainly by personal gain without regard for the consequences to others, but I wouldn't define that as "good business"! :P I suppose he was a victim of the environment he was raised in, in the same sense that child abusers were usually abused themselves as children. But I see him definitely as playing an active role in selling out his fellow hobbits; I can't believe he didn't have some idea of what he was risking.

Either way, like I said, I see his motivation entirely as desire for power and personal gain, so in my mind, no matter what Lotho did or didn't do, that makes him a "bad" character, not an innocent victim. It's interesting to try to define Lotho like this! I try to give all the characters in my pre-LOTR fic a believable basis for their later actions in LOTR--the whole reason behind the fic is to explore how the characters and relationships of the four main hobbits came about, after all--but I'm realizing that a lot of what I write is based on subconscious impressions or something. I've never consciously given thought to whether Lotho was a victim of circumstances/environment/whatever, but I write his younger self as malicious, vengeful, selfish, unfeeling, etc. He is one character who will never have a change of heart in my story, because at the end he has to be the kind of person who would do the things Lotho does in LOTR.

I think it's all about goals and motivations. Lotho is not an innocent misguided businessman, for the simple reason that he is motivated by wanting power and wealth at any cost. Of course you could argue it's not his "fault" that his character developed that way, given who his parents were, but I don't think that's relevant. Everyone is to a large extent a product of early influences, good or bad. Lotho is not "evil" in my mind, but he definitely lacks the morality and selfless motivations of the other hobbits.

[dreamflower]

*Exactly*!!
It is not like we don't all know of people who grew up in horrible environments, with horrible parents, who turned out to be decent caring people anyway--as well as the opposite occuring.

Again, I see Lotho as "evil" on a sliding scale of evil. He is less evil than Saruman, only because he has less "stature" (think of how the Ring gave power according to stature) but he is *more* evil than say, the hobbits who spread gossip about Frodo's parents, but never went any further than talk. He would probably have ended up like Wormtongue if he had lived--completely consumed with malice. I think he was much like Gollum must have been before he got the Ring.

I have a theory that Lotho and his parents lacked what I think of as the "charisma gene"--a personality trait built into the majority of hobbits, that makes them charming and friendly, and causes most Big Folk to feel all protective of them. It's a natural defense mechanism, and they are completely unconscious of it. It is especially strong in the Fallohide strain.

According to UT, the Bracegirdles had been having dealings with Saruman for a good long while. I'm wondering now how strong the Stoorish strain was in them, and if there is any possibility the Bracegirdles could have been related back through generations to Smeagol?

[lindelea1.livejournal.com]

Fascinating discussion! Must admit, though I "reformed" Lobelia and Ted Sandyman, I've never attempted the same for Lotho. Perhaps he had a realisation, but too little, too late.

My wiser characters pity him, my more mundane characters hold him in contempt.

But thinking about Stoor blood, and distant relation to Gollum? As I said, fascinating speculation!