The Hobbit-- Spoilers??

[dreamflower]

Thanks to children_of_lir for the link to this very interesting thread. It raises some very interesting questions.

http://fanficrants.livejournal.com/11256436.html

For example, can you spoil a seventy-five year old story?

Whose responsibility is it for spoilers--the person who's posting fic, or the person who wants to avoid the spoilers?

And the one that puzzles me most: Were the children of 1937 really more intelligent than the children of the present day?

(BTW, and totally OT: I DO NOT LIKE THE NEW POSTING PAGE!)

Comments

[stageira.livejournal.com]

Well in the case of the Hobbit, LOTR or you know even Sherlock Holmes I think that it's a free game.

These books have been out for more than 60 years, there have been adaptations, series, comics, and so many things about them that I think people who complain about spoilers should not really come close to these things, cause obviously they don't care about the source material.

I understand that some people think that Tolkien is a difficult author to read, even the Hobbit, but that is no excuse, really.

Having said that I will totally warn, but most of the things I have seen posted on AO3 have tags warning about alternate endings/character deaths and such and because I have ignored them in the past in my haste to get to the fic, I do think this person is just complaining and not paying attention to the warnings/tags.

Totally IMHO of course.

(Silly question: Can't you use an LJ client like semagic?)

[dreamflower]

Yeah--decades! They are part of pop culture; I don't know how anyone could NOT be spoiled for them.

Since I don't write movie-verse (except for maybe a few elements that can fit into book-verse) I don't warn for spoilers. I expect people reading my stories to be familiar with the books. When I post at ff.net, I DO try to remember to label my stories "book-verse" most of the time, because not everyone there is a Tolkien fan. When I post at SoA or MPTT, I don't bother.

Umm...what's semagic?

[stageira.livejournal.com]

I just don't get these people or the ones who agree and say anything from "it's a difficult book" to "I don't consider the source material to be the same". Eh, from what I know Peter Jackson is not in the habit of making Alternate Realities movies, so you can bet money that his movies will follow the books to the letter when it comes to people dying and all important events *sigh*

I just don't know in what world these people want to live in, but I get tired of it occasionally and I just want to throw the really good Silmarillion hardcover that I never read at their heads.

On the other hand I would give lots of money for the Hobbit movies not to end like the book or for Tolkien to have actually learned how to write, so that he wouldn't have to kill ALL 3 of the main protagonists (Thorin I can understand, but I still believe that Tolkien killed Fili and Kili cause he didn't know what to do with them) For all that people think that the Hobbit is a children's book I don't really think so?

Semagic is an LJ client, a programm that you can download on your computer and use it to write your entries and upload them to livejournal (dreamwidth/insanejournal). It is basically like a Word programm for journals. If you use one computer to read/update livejournal it's a very good tool (I've been using it for about 6-7 years, let me know if you need some help with it?)

[dreamflower]

Well, I wouldn't say he killed all three of the main protagonists. Yes, Thorin was, but Fili and Kili were not main players in the book at all. Of the Dwarves, only Thorin and Balin were main characters, Balin just barely so. ALL 3 of the MAIN protagonists would have been Thorin, Bilbo and Gandalf!

But I think that he had more in mind than just killing off Fili and Kili because he did not know what to do with them. They were Thorin's nephews, and their relationship to him was a special one in the Northern mythologies that Tolkien drew from. The whole "sister-son" thing is pretty important. It was pretty much a given that if Thorin died, his closest kin would probably also die defending him. Here Tolkien was following a well-known trope in the myths. A downer, to be sure, but not nearly so tragic in the book (where we did not really get to know Fili and Kili) as it is going to be in the movies, where the two have "moved up" to main protagonists, and apparently major heartthrobs for some fans.

Hmm...I'll have to give that some thought. My comp's a little old and cranky, so I'm always leery of downloading new stuff.

[light-frost.livejournal.com]

I feel like this is an unpopular opinion, BUT:

Yes. To both. I think people should hide spoilers for those who don't wish to be spoiled. I love going into a movie or a book with very little expectations or ideas about the story.

Even though the story is very old and well-known, some people may not know anything about it...

And it's your own fault if you click on a link marked "spoilers" and are then spoiled.

Although, I usually refrain from reading fics or articles about something until I've actually watched/read the thing that they're talking about, so that spoilers aren't a problem. But to me, marking spoilers is just considerate and not a big deal.

[dreamflower]

I don't think it's right not to warn for major spoilers for something new. I certainly would do my best, for example, not to spoil an episode of Doctor Who or a movie I'd seen that someone else had not. If I post anything about TH:AUJ, for example, I try to warn for any elements in which PJ has deviated from the book. I also might warn for visual elements unique to the movie (or I might not, depending on what that is.)

But if I were writing a story about TH set in the part of the book that the movie hasn't covered yet, I don't think it would occur to me to consider them spoilers. In fact, I HAVE written such stories, years BEFORE PJ made the movie. I certainly have no intention of going back and adding spoiler warnings on to them now.

Perhaps, since I almost always post fic only in Tolkien archives or communities, I make the assumption that anyone there reading the fics have read the books. I am in the process of posting my stories now at ff.net. Because that is NOT a Tolkien only archive, I warn by labeling my story "book-verse" in the summary. That should be warning enough to a person who has yet to read the books.

I generally don't care much about spoilers. It depends on what it is; but if it's something I actually mind being spoiled for, I would certainly avoid reading fic or meta about it until I had seen/read whatever it is.

[aspenjules.livejournal.com]

I just have a question... What is AO3? Or is it A03?

[dreamflower]

An "Archive Of Our Own", so it is AO3; it's a multi-fandom archive sort of run more or less by the same folks who are part of OTW and Dreamwidth and Fanlore--it's a totally fan run archive.

[stageira.livejournal.com]

It's where the fan fiction lives! All of it! (Well, enough of it).

Any fandom you might think of, all types, all lengths and without any restrictions what so ever.

Archive of our own

[shirebound]

As far as I'm concerned, there should be spoiler warnings for new films -- and by new, I mean the first 1-2 years after it comes out. And if a book is new (such as when new Harry Potter books were coming out year after year), a spoiler warning is more than a courtesy -- it's expected. As for books that have been out for years, such as LOTR or The Hobbit, I neither give nor expect any spoiler warnings.

[dreamflower]

I think that's pretty much my approach as well. I will say that now that I am also posting at ff.net instead of just at Tolkien-only archives, I do try to remember to label stories "book-verse". That should be enough warning for anyone.

Honestly, I do expect that anyone who considers him/herself a fan of something ought to be familiar with the canon. But I am beginning to learn that perhaps I have too high expectations. I've seen fic now in which the author has obviously no familiarity at all with the story!

[fantasy-fan.livejournal.com]

I must say I was rather put off by the level of entitlement expressed by the original poster (although I suppose since it was posted in something called fanfic rants, I shouldn't have been). As far as I am concerned, fanfic is a free gift, generously offered by the authors and it is the height of rudeness to complain that the gift is not to your taste, or at least not wrapped attractively enough for you. As far as I am concerned, the only proper response to fanfic is appreciation, and if you can't muster that, a silent click of the 'back' button.

This seems to me to be a variation of an argument that has been going on for a long time in a lot of fandoms. What warnings are necessary, and is it OK not to warn if the author doesn't want to. I don't think an author owes anyone warnings, especially at AO3, where there is even an option "author chose not to use archive warnings." If you click on a story that specifically doesn't have warnings, you get what you deserve. It is common to warn for adult content, or character death, or for specific triggers such as slash, because there are so many people who would like to prioritize their reading that way, but it also benefits the author to do so, because no author wants someone to start to read their story only to be disappointed - most fanfic authors who choose to make their work public genuinely want people to like it. However, if you mandate that these warnings are required, or even necessary, or even (as was stated in the rant) common courtesy, then what's to say that warnings for other things like genderswap or mpreg are not just as necessary? And if you specify those requirements, then what about angst in general, or h/c, or even fluff? There must be people who abhor curtain fic, or baby fic, or even puppies. There isn't anywhere you can draw a dividing line, and have everyone agree with it - I would say not even most people.

So: spoilers in specific. What is the responsibility of the reader? I think someone who wants to come in to an established canon after one third of it is filmed and released, and gets upset about spoilers for the rest of it, is just lazy and claiming far too much privilege. If you're that concerned about not being spoiled, read the darn book. It's not hard to find. It's not that hard to read. If you absolutely can't manage that, then don't read the stories until after the other two movies come out. It won't be that long. Same thing goes for other recent books or films or TV shows. If you haven't seen them, and you don't want to know anything about them, don't seek out the fanfic. For example, I have watched part of one season of Dr. Who, and picked up a few other references just from cultural cross-pollination. But if I were to read a Dr. Who story based on an interesting summary, and it turned out to spoil me for something in Season 7, I wouldn't dream of blaming an author for that.

[dreamflower]

I must say I was rather put off by the level of entitlement expressed by the original poster

*nods* Me too, especially since later on she says something to the effect that she thought everything would be "OK" because TH was a "children's book" (a silly argument blown to pieces by other commenters) and then that she'd read the book years ago, didn't like it and had forgotten it. She also said she went *looking* for "future-fic"--what did she expect except spoilers? Yet she seems to think she had no responsibility for avoiding a spoilery situation!

You know, sometimes I DO warn for fluff! Not everyone is fond of wee!hobbits (I don't know why anyone wouldn't be, but that's a different discussion) and "baby-talk".

I just think it's very silly though to expect NOT to get spoiled for a story that has been out for 75 YEARS!

And most of the time, I not only don't mind spoilers, I will often even go looking for them! So I may not be the best judge of these things.

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

It certainly provides some food for thought.

I don't think the children of 1937 were more intelligent than present day children. Possibly a lot less shielded from the more unpleasant realities of life, though. Yes, there are some very sad moments in the book, but classic children's literature is littered with sad moments. And today's literature isn't all that different. Once you're old enough to read long chapter books, you're old enough to deal with sad things happening to the characters you like. Harry Potter is a perfect example of this.

If you're writing Hobbit fic (based on the movie but pulling from the book and expectations of the next two movies) and posting it in the movies section of an archive like AO3, you should probably put up a spoiler warning for anything that happens after the end of the first movie, since there are going to be people pulled into the fandom by the movies, who haven't read the book and don't know what's coming next. And it's also the original poster's right to vent her frustration on a site dedicated to people venting frustrations. But I do also think that if one is going to dive into a fandom as old as Middle Earth, one is going to come across things that aren't properly labeled with spoiler warnings, because people simply forget that what they're writing might be considered spoilery for new members of the community.

I also liked, in the comments thread to the original post, what someone said about the difference between spoilers and reminders. It's a fine line, but not entirely wrong, that if you've read the book before you're not getting spoiled because once upon a time you already knew it. You're simply being reminded.

[dreamflower]

Even children's books of today do not shield children from unpleasant realities as you say--look at HP; the main character was orphaned, abused, suffered several near-fatal encounters with someone out to kill him! Even classic stories from the past had character death--"Little Women" or "A Secret Garden"; child abuse--"Oliver Twist", "James and the Giant Peach"; and many other unpleasant topics.

But what got me were the number of commenters who complained NOT that TH had unpleasant truths about War (people die) but that it was TOO HARD TO READ! I've heard that complaint about LotR (I suppose I could see that, though I don't agree) and certainly I've heard it about The Silm (and I can certainly see that; it took me three tries to get through it the first time, though it was worth it in the end). But too hard to read THE HOBBIT? Honestly, I am shaking my head at this--and these are people who are no longer children complaining that it's too hard for them to read now?

As to the warnings, I can see it in a multi-fandom archive like AO3 or ff.net, to warn for "book-verse". But I've only just begun to do that--up until recently I have only posted at Tolkien only archives, and to be honest it never occurred to me that anyone reading my stories would not be completely familiar with the books.

And I thought that was an excellent point about "reminders" myself!

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

That bit about it being too hard to read got me, too. Tolkien can be very wordy and difficult at times, but The Hobbit is really pretty accessible, in my opinion.

And yeah, for the spoiler warnings, when I was mainly posting at SOA, it never occurred to me to put up spoiler alerts for the books.

[dreamflower]

The Hobbit is not at all difficult to read. It's a little wordy and whimsical in tone, but it's not hard! And it is written in modern English. When I was in fifth grade (before I encountered Tolkien) my favorite book was Howard Pyle's version of Robin Hood--it is entirely written "forsoothly"--"thees" and and "thous" and "zounds" and all. I had no trouble at all understanding that.

Yeah, now that I'm posting at a multifandom archive, I try to remember to put "book-verse" on the summary. But I think that's as far as I need to go.

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

my favorite book was Howard Pyle's version of Robin Hood--it is entirely written "forsoothly"--"thees" and and "thous" and "zounds" and all.

You know, I suspect you may have put your finger on it right there. I had a different version of Robin Hood but it was still 'verily' this and 'prithee' that. I loved that kind of language as a kid and Tolkien fit right into that sort of storytelling that aims for children but doesn't dumb down to them.

[dreamflower]

*nods* Also, I am of the generation who went to Sunday School every week and memorized Bible verses from the KJV. So I grew up understanding that sort of language--it wasn't "everyday" language, but it was not hard for me to comprehend.

Kids' stories don't need to be "dumbed down". Previous generations of authors knew that--mostly what they need is a protagonist that a kid can identify with. In most cases, that protagonist is a kid, but sometimes it could be a small person (like a hobbit) or it could be an anthropomorphized animal (like Peter Rabbit) or it can be an adult with a good sense of humor and fair play (like Robin Hood).

[periantari.livejournal.com]

That request for non spoilers is a bit funny, i feel. If this women wants to read fanfic for The HObbit, should really reread the book... how hard is it, really? IMHO. :P

[dreamflower]

I know. Several people complained that it was "too hard" to read! I mean, THE HOBBIT?? I could see them complaining about The Silm, but for heaven's sake, TH is a CHILDREN'S BOOK!

[children-of-lir.livejournal.com]

Lol. I would love to see some of these snowflakes try to wrap their widdle minds around "The Worm Ouroboros".

Compared to Eddison, "The Hobbit" goes down like warm infant formula.

[dreamflower]

LOL! Ah...yes. Or perhaps the Gormenghast trilogy?

The Hobbit is a pretty straightforward story.

What gets me is that these are adults complaining that it's still too hard to read. OK, maybe they gave it a try when they weren't quite old enough to get it. Does that mean it would be too hard for them to try now? Or that they might like it better now?

Took me three tries to get through The Silm the first time--but I didn't blame the book for being "too hard". I blamed myself for having the wrong expectations, and tried again.

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

I can't see much point in reading fanfic or sequels unless you know the original. I'm the type of person who will often glance at the end of a book to see if I like the end enough to read it, so spoilers don't bother me.I think that by clicking on a story you are accepting the possibilty of spoilers so I'd rather warnings were saved for things like explicit content and foul language.

I hate the new layout too.

[dreamflower]

I can't see much point in reading fanfic or sequels unless you know the original.

Well, to me that seems logical. Of course, she's apparently into the movie-verse version. But she had to realize (or should have) that the movie would follow the book, and that she'd run into things that hadn't happened yet--since she was LOOKING for "future-fic". Why would you *not* expect to be spoiled if you do that?

I think it wasn't so much being spoiled as it was by her bubble being burst by finding out about a certain character death. But that's the chance you take.

[surgicalsteel.livejournal.com]

The original poster came across as more than a bit whiny and entitled. 75 year old children's book is split into three movies. OP has seen the first movie, has not read the book. If I say 'book canon,' OP should assume that material which has not yet made it to the screen may well be in the fic.

I was also more than a little dismayed by the 'it's too hard to read' threads. I first read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings when I was in like 3rd or 4th grade. When I came across words I didn't know, I looked them up in a dictionary. LotR's definitely more challenging than TH - but OMG it's not the Silm, it's not the HoMe volumes, etc.

Oh and the 'it's a children's book so I thought the ending would be happy.' Seriously that person must not've read the same books I read as a kid. I remember A Little Princess and The Secret Garden as not being particularly easy on the protagonists, in Little House on the Prairie the Ingalls family almost died like every other page, I remember one book called I Heard the Owl Call My Name in which the protagonist dies by the end of the book - and good gracious, if you look at more recent children's/YA lit, it's not all sunshine and roses.

[dreamflower]

The original poster came across as more than a bit whiny and entitled.

Exactly!

I was also more than a little dismayed by the 'it's too hard to read' threads.

Did you see the part where one person was complaining about all the pages and pages of history of pipeweed in TH? Turns out they didn't recall TH at all, but were thinking of the prologue to LotR. I can't imagine how you could mistake the two! I cannot imagine what any child would find "too hard" about TH!

And, yep. HP is full of child abuse, bullying, murder, near fatal injuries, war...nope, no sunshine and roses there.

What really floored me was the revelation that the OP deliberately went looking for "future-fic" and did not expect to be spoiled? *sheesh* I honestly think what ticked her off was not the "spoiler" but the character death she was not expecting.

If some of the TH movie-verse fans don't get a clue beforehand, a whole LOT of them are going to be whining by the time the third movie's over. The most popular 'ships are going to sink big-time.

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

I've been "spoiled" for all kinds of things that the masses soaked up but I had no interest in. I've never read Wuthering Heights, I know Heathcliff dies. I've never seen Citizen Kane, I know Rosebud is the sled. I knew about the 'surprise' in The Crying Game before I saw the movie several years after it came out (thank you, Billy Crystal, for that hilarious Oscar intro). I've never seen any of the Godfather movies, but know at some point, someone wakes up with a horse's head in his bed. It goes on and on.

My stance on it personally is if I never bothered reading/watching it for x-plus years, then I shouldn't be surprised or upset when someone assumes I have and tells me what happens. Now, if someone asks me, "have you seen such and such" and I tell them "no, don't spoil it for me" (considering I care, which I probably won't) that's an entirely different matter. I would expect that person to then keep their mouth shut until I've had time to watch it. It's also my responsibility to stay away from anything related to that fandom until I have time to get around to watching it, as I'm doing with the current series of Doctor Who.

Since being introduced to Mark Reads/Watches, I'm much more aware of spoilers for pop culture books/shows than I had been. Some people really haven't seen/read popular things and haven't yet been spoiled for them. But again, it's their responsibility to avoid the spoilers.

[dreamflower]

*nods* I agree. I don't give a flying fig who the current Bachelor is, either, but I am sure that someone will tell me whether I want to know or not. Pop culture is pervasive--that's why it's pop culture.

Sometimes I will go looking for spoilers, even, if I want to have an idea of whether I want to watch/read something.

I do think that authors of fic, as a courtesy should label spoilers for things that are new. And if I am going to discuss something in detail that another person may not be familiar with, I'll stick it behind a cut. And now that I am posting at a multifandom archive, I will even stick "book-verse" in my summary--something that I don't bother with at SoA or MPTT or even my LJ. Practically everyone on my flist is a Tolkien fan and I can't imagine them being spoiled.

But spoiler warnings are not a requirement, especially for something that's been around as long as TH and LotR! (Unless it's a community that makes them a requirement).

Mark makes his spoiler policy clear, and it's enforced on his site. I actually found it kind of fun to use rot.13 or to try and talk about something without really saying what it was. Even so, it's easy to slip up with things you don't realize might be spoilers. I certainly don't think I could do it ALL the time in my own space--it would be too much effort. It IS kind of fun to see someone's unspoiled reaction to something you already know. But as you said, the onus should be on the person who wants to stay unspoiled.

When I don't want to be spoiled for something, I do make an effort. But I don't get ticked off if I do get spoiled. I was hoping to avoid getting spoiled for the winner of the Westminster Dog Show until we'd finished watching what we'd DVR'd. Oh well--it was all over the news. It was a slight let-down, but no big deal. I know these things going in, if I plan to watch something later I may or may not be able to avoid it. That's the risk you take nowadays when everything is instant.

As far as the OP in that thread goes, personally I think she was less upset by the spoiler than by what the spoiler was--she didn't like that particular character death. Oh well. That decision was made 75 years ago, and it's not going to change now.