Someone else with a scheme to make money off of fanfic...

[dreamflower]

Apparently Amazon has decided that fanfiction can be profitable.

I don't like the sound of this. I REALLY don't. Here's my comment to the article:

This is the worst idea I have ever heard of in regards to fan fiction.

I don't write my fic to get paid money; I write my fic as a gift to the fandom, and my pay is the thanks, comments and reviews of my fellow fans. Getting paid turns it into work and drudgery.

Fanfiction and other fanworks are part of a very special gift economy. Money will just gum up the works and allowing the amount of control being demanded to participate in these corporate sponsored schemes are going to put shackles on the creativity that is inherent in fanfiction.

After all, you don't think they are going to allow you to write crossovers with properties they don't own, or allow you to come up with an AU that's not approved by the rightsholders, do you?

And what will this do to archives filled with the free fanfiction of the rightsholders who've bought into this scheme? For example, would they be able to demand that ffn or Ao3 take down all the Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and Vampire Diaries fanfic? (Is there any fic for those fandoms? I don't know as they are not my fandoms, but I'd bet dollars to donuts there is.)

Rotten, rotten, rotten idea. I knew as soon as the story broke about 50 Shades of Grey being such a hit that everyone would want on board the supposed fanfic gravy train...

ETAThank you to ramblin_rosie for this link, where you can find this VERY OMINOUS quote:

“We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.”

and this:

"“Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright.”

Which means your special AU or your awesome OC is no longer yours. And you only get paid for your story once

Comments

[shirebound]

I like your response VERY much.

Pretty Little Liars has over 25,000 fics on ff.net! I've never seen that show.

[dreamflower]

I've never seen it either. Just the name of it puts me off. But clearly it does have a lot of fans who could stand to lose by this deal.

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

If SOA does that, I will pull my account.

[dreamflower]

It can't. I seriously doubt that LotR fic will ever be affected by this sort of thing.

So far as I can tell, the owner of the copyright of the source has to agree to sign over any rights in said fanfic to this corporation, and then once the agreement is made with the fanfic author, she/he loses any future rights in the story. It turns fanfic into "write-for-hire".

But I can't see the Tolkien estate ever signing up for such a scheme, thank heavens! But if you've fic in other fandoms, particularly media fandoms rather than literary ones, it could at some point become an issue.

Because I can imagine that if, for example, Vampire Diaries, which is part of this deal, wants to maximize the agreement, they could demand that any free fanfic out there be taken down.

As for SoA, I don't believe the site owner would ever countenance such a thing anyhow.

[gamgeefest.livejournal.com]

That's one thing to be grateful for. :)

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

Such a bad idea. I agree with what you've written.

[dreamflower]

It's a HORRIBLE idea, and one that I hope is SOUNDLY REJECTED by the vast majority of fic writers!

[ramblin_rosie]

Pretty much every discussion I've seen of it today has said the same things. And then there's John Scalzi's first-blush reaction, which basically says that Amazon and WB are trying to make fic work-for-hire that they can then exploit further without the author's permission and without further payment to the author. So yeah. Bad idea.

[dreamflower]

Thank you for that link! I am going to edit that into the body of my post!
I appreciate it!

[mrowe.livejournal.com]

Well said. I have the same worry about Amazon now having a reason to 'go after' archives for the fandoms it's bought into.

And crossovers are banned, it's in the conditions.

Yes, they want the next 50 Shades, only without having to pay - or even acknowledge? - the author beyond the initial royalties for the Kindle deal.

[dreamflower]

You know, it's one thing to post a fic and never expect a penny for it, as you bask in the joy you've given others.

It's totally another thing to work hard on a labor of love, get paid a pittance for it, and never know how it will be received, but also know that someone else will get any future profits on it.

"Write-for-hire" is one thing when you (meaning me, actually) are tossing off a couple of hundred words on a non-fic article you've been assigned. I've done that--it's kind of fun, and I don't expect anything out of it but pin-money.

But I'll be darned if I'm going to pour my soul into a work of fiction for something like that!

[the-mad-hobbit.livejournal.com]

No, no no and a capital NO!

Bad bad bad idea and likely to be the death of fanfiction.

*shakes head

Hugs,
Rach

[dreamflower]

After sleeping on it, I find it mildly less worrisome on a personal level--as I've mentioned before, the Tolkien Estate is never going to agree to such a deal, and I can't see it happening with the majority of big literary properties.

But overall for for fanfiction in general and for many media fandoms, it might very well be what you predict.

I really want to see the OTW's reaction to this news. They are rather lawyer-heavy there.

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

Well, as someone who's long daydreamed of being able to take long holidays on the Caribbean from the millions I raked in for At Hope's Edge, I can hardly cast aspersions toward anyone who decides the Kindle deal is for them. I might privately question their sanity, given the overreaching terms of the contract, but if they feel it's the right thing for them, who am I to say.

I suppose I'm simply not really buying into the fannish panic over this. Maybe it's because there's no chance in the world that Tolkien's works would ever be included, so for me it's all a bit academic, but I don't see this as the potential Slayer of All Fanfiction. To my mind, the Tolkien Estate itself is a far greater threat to online Tolkien fic, as litigious as they are about Tolkien's works. I'm frankly amazed they haven't tried to crack down on Tolkien archives, but it could be that their lawyers know it'd be like trying to cut off the head of the Hydra. It's not worth it, and as we're not trying to make money like slot-machine makers or the unauthorized biographers are, perhaps we slip under their radar.

[dreamflower]

I really think they could find us on the radar if they wanted to, but believe they are savvy enough to know that saving their ammunition for real money-making threats is much more important. And frankly, terrorizing some dedicated young fanfic writer who's never made a dime off them could end up a PR nightmare for them.

I'm not worried for MYSELF, frankly. I don't even know anything about the three fandoms currently under contract with Kindle Worlds; since they are supposed to be aimed at teens they don't interest me.

HOWEVER, while it doesn't affect me specifically, it does take aim at the idea of fanfiction and fandom in general--those are poor terms for any writer, much less some of the young ones who might be tempter; plus, they put fanfiction out there to be targetted even more by the critics.

Just because they aren't trying to move in on me doesn't mean such a thing should not be viewed suspiciously.

(And looking at the terms they offer--even if LotR was eligible, no one (among fanwriters) will be raking in billions in this deal. Caribbean holidays would be right out, though you might be able to make enough to rent a DVD travelogue on the area...

[cairistiona7.livejournal.com]

Just because they aren't trying to move in on me doesn't mean such a thing should not be viewed suspiciously.

You judge me wrongly if you think I'm of the opinion that if a wrong doesn't affect me, I can't be bothered. Far from it. I simply don't see yet that the scenario will be as dire as many predict, nor do I agree that this targets fandom in any overtly malicious way. I may be proven wrong, but I hope not.

I do agree that it's definitely something to watch closely.

[dreamflower]

I hope it won't be as dire either. But anytime a big corporation comes up with something like this, I know they only have their own bottom line in mind.

Malice doesn't enter in, I don't think. It's "nothing personal, just business"--but it's certainly going to be skewed towards the big money and not much thought given to the "mere fans" they will be taking advantage of, IMO.

I won't say there are no companies out there that take a more altruistic view; I know there are some--but they're darn few, and from previous things, I don't think Amazon is one of them.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think all of your points are legitimate ones.

[dawn_felagund]

I will start by saying that I would advise any writer not to sign this contract and would never participate myself, were the option to arise, because I don't sell "all rights" and because I'm very happy in traditional fandom. But.

I think there is an either/or argument being made in the KW discussion that I don't see having any basis in reality at this point. This is not a choice of "KW or traditional fandom." The two can--and probably will--coexist side-by-side. So the entrance of KW onto the scene doesn't get rid of that gift economy any more than the existence of authorized tie-in novels have for their fandoms--and there are fans who are active in both.

And what will this do to archives filled with the free fanfiction of the rightsholders who've bought into this scheme?

They'll most likely continue to exist just as they do now. That's my bet. First of all, Amazon is not the rights holder. They cannot order a C&D on fanfic because they do not own the rights to the original works in their "worlds"; they have purchased a license from the rights holders that allows them to sell "fanfic" based on those works.

Would the rights holders try to stop "unauthorized" fanfic? I think we need to consider what the benefit would be for them to do so. Firstly, they have not as yet, and I have seen the argument made that many rights holders who are uneasy about fanworks are more content with us in the legal gray area that we currently occupy than if we were to actually earn rights via a court challenge surrounding fanworks, which I have seen some experts suggest would have a good chance of happening, should such a court challenge come to pass. Also, if they want to "get in" on fanfic, what worse possible way to go about it than by dismantling the very fandoms they hope to benefit from? We fannish folk may not agree on much, but we tend to put up a pretty united front when we feel our existence is threatened. If they want a guarantee that their project will fail, they will go after traditional fandom.

However, I think they serve to benefit a good deal from traditional fandom, and I expect they know it, as many rights holders already do.