My spoilery review for TH:DOS
Dec. 15th, 2013 04:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dreamflowerFirst of all, just going to the movie was a lot of fun. Our son took his dad and myself to the local theater, so it was in 2D; we didn't dress up this year, but I did wear my Bilbo's journey shirt and my hobbit feet. Here's a link to a picture of me that our son took:
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1468816_703700716315490_2092085950_n.jpg
Now for some spoilery stuff, behind the cut:
Before LOTR came out in the movies, I went looking for spoilers because I wanted to dampen down any expectations I might have. I did not want to go in to see it too hyped up, and then walk out all sad and feeling cheated. (Blame Ralph Bakshi for that.) The result was that when the parts I ended up hating came along, I was ready to find a way past them. And when I later discovered fanfic, I realized that's what movie-verse is: an AU fanfic.
So I did the same things for TH. I looked for spoilers and found things that might bug me, and was ready to let them slide off my back. AUJ, as a result was a very pleasant experience.
With DOS, there were a lot more things I hated to see, and a few places where I actually laughed when it wasn't supposed to be funny. I was expecting Tauriel to be a Mary Sue, and so was somewhat pleased that she wasn't as bad as I had feared she'd be. Lots of plot lines and extraneous material I did not care for. BUT--
I was still able to enjoy it over all; I knew I'd both love AND hate it, and so it proved to be true. I don't quite love it as much as AUJ, and definitely don't love it as much as LOTR. BUT: it's got a long way to go before I would hate it as much as I do Bakshi's LOTR!
As an adaptation, it's meh. As a movie, it was a lot of fun. As a fanfic, it's a runaway AU!
The thing is though, it's going to be a lot harder with this one for fanfic writers to blend the book and movie than it is for fanfic writers to blend LotR (the book) and LOTR (the movie).
First off, stuff I LOVED. Here are some of the things I thought were great:
I loved the flashback to Gandalf's meeting with Thorin in Bree. I especially loved the bit when the two implied bounty hunters backed off at Gandalf's arrival.
The music! The music was awesome. Howard Shore for the win, once more.
Beorn (though he wasn't quite what I'd always imagined. Apparently I was influenced by the Bros. Hildebrandt's version of him—even though I did not usually care for their depictions of characters. But that's what I see when I imagine him. I also loved the look of his hall; though I would have liked to see the dog and pony show as in the book, I already knew that wouldn't happen, so it was nice to see the nod to Beorn's animals anyway, even if they didn't serve at the table!
I also liked the look of Thranduil. I knew the actor's name, but was not familiar with any of his other work. But physically he was much like I expected, and he seemed very other-worldly and Elvish.
Mirkwood was awesomely creepy, though not quite as dark as I've always imagined. The scene with Bilbo and the butterflies was one I was awaiting with great anticipation, and it was SO worth it! That beautiful expression of delight on Bilbo's face as he breaks through the trees was marvelous, it made me grin so hard! Easily my favorite shot in the movie!
Martin Freeman's performance as Bilbo continues to blow me away. I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but frequently I saw expressions on his face, or ways that he moved, that seemed to echo Billy Boyd's performance as Pippin without actually imitating it. It seemed to me to really emphasize his Tookishness.
Ian McKellan kicked Gandalf up a notch. I love seeing him in fighting mode.
The spiders were really cool and very scary. Smaller and faster than Shelob, but sort of made creepier by the fact that there were hordes of them! Bilbo being even more awesome than ever. Loved the way he went after the spiders, and loved his rescuing the Dwarves. His panic when he realized he forgot to get himself out was adorable and reminded me of book-Bilbo a lot!
The Elven-king's Hall was really cool, too! Very much the way I'd imagined it.
Tauriel? Well, I have to admit I kind of like her as a character, though I have some issues with the storyline they gave her. But I'll get to that later.
I liked Legolas being shown as younger and more naïve than in LOTR. He's on a learning curve here. I did get a giggle out of him confronting Gloin with the picture of little Gimli! If he only knew!
Laketown was awesome—I can't recall the name, but there was a fantasy series I once read about that had a town set on the water like that, very labyrinthine. I liked the idea of giving Bard more of a role, and his character being a sort of freedom fighter was appropriate; I also liked the backstory of his kids and him being widowed.
Gandalf and Radagast make a good team, and I was glad to see Radagast still helping. Gandalf in a trap and unable to meet up when he had promised.
I though Bilbo figuring out the keyhole was really neat, too!
SMAUG!!!!!!!!! Smaug the Magnificent! Smaug the Greatest of Calamities! Smaug! Smaug! Smaug!
There were lots of other things I liked, little small things such as all the nods to LOTR, which gives the whole franchise a sort of sense of continuity. And little details that made me smile like the bumblebees waking Bilbo up, or the coin dropping out of his cuff when they were running from the dragon. (I mean he was sliding all around through that gold—of course some of it probably got stuck in his clothing. Oh—and I have to add I absolutel was impressed with Balin in this one, expanding on his “wise old friend” from the first movie, and becoming a real friend to Bilbo, and willing to remonstrate with Thorin for his lack of concern: “His name is BILBO!” I kind of cheered a little bit when he said that.
Now On The Other Hand:
Things that I really did NOT like:
I know very well that it was necessary to truncate the storyline, and to show things happening a little sooner. BUT I was quite disappointed that we did not see more of the journey in Mirkwood. It would not have been hard to have indicated a passage of time and show the Dwarves lost and hungry, and show that it took them a while to get through Mirkwood. It's done all the time in movies—they can show years passing in about one minute. So it would not have had to make the movie longer. Instead they have the Dwarves and Bilbo all acting as though they are drugged or something. That part was just weird!
I'm not a fan of the Evil!Thranduil thing. That, I suppose, is a matter of taste and interpretation, but I'd really rather have seen him a bit more reasonable and less bloodthirsty. His attitude bordered on being a little less than sane in places.
OK, the barrel thing. This was something I had been looking forward to. It started out well with Bilbo getting the barrels out, but then PJ upped the stakes by making it that they are not only being chased by the Elves, but the Orcs too. And then Kili gets stuck with a “Morgul arrow”?!? A MORGUL arrow? Oh come ON! The least PJ could have done is come up with something different! And Kili just being a little pale and weak, but still managing to fight just fine and walk around everything right up until Thorin decides to leave him behind. Uh-uh. No. Just NO!
And this is where the whole Tauriel ambivalence comes in. I liked her determination to follow the Dwarves and the Orcs; I loved her whole fighting thing, and her conversation with Kili about the stone and about the starlight was lovely. But curing him with athelas? Uh, no. Athelas doesn't work that way. * sigh * I'm sorry, but cute as Kili is, he is not Frodo. Having this particular thing in there felt to me like it was de-valueing the Ringbearer. Plus athelas is not just something anyone can just pick up and use like that. So unless we discover that Tauriel has Luthien somewhere in her ancestry, this doesn't fly with me.
And why the HECK did PJ decide to split the party up? What point was served by leaving several of their members back in Laketown? That was not cool at all.
While I really loved seeing Gandalf poking around in Dol Goldur, I did not much like Sauron flashing like a Christmas light! I wouldn't have minded so much just one brief flash, or even two. But that whole blinking thing? Another Uh-uh.
And then there was the Lonely Mountain. The Bilbo parts with Smaug were awesome, though I didn't understand why he kept taking the Ring off. But once the Dwarves got involved it just went totally downhill, like a runaway roller-coaster. I will admit that some of the special effects were neat to watch, but it was during this part that I kept finding myself giggling at things that weren't supposed to be funny, just from the sheer impossibility of them. They were all running around, berserk, and not really doing anything useful.
Now there were a few things I was puzzled over, and can't decide how I feel about them. But they were all things I'd think of as “loose end” sorts of things that might make sense next December. So I will leave them be until then and see how they turn out.
There was one thing, however, that made me wonder about something. As a plot element in the movie, all those rivers of melted gold and Thorin floating along on it made no sense at all. But for me, well it reminded me of something, a passage from a draft that JRRT rejected for The Hobbit early on, one in which Bilbo is the one to slay the dragon, and then floats along a river of dragon blood in a golden cup. Here's the quotation, from a discarded early first draft outline:
”Bilbo puts on ring and creeps into dungeon, and hides. Dragon comes back at last and sleeps exhausted by battle.
Bilbo [takes>] plunges in his little magic knife and it disappears. he cannot wield the swords or spears.
Throes of dragon. Smashes walls and entrance to tunnel. Bilbo floats away in a golden bowl on D.'s blood, till it comes to rest in a deep dark hole. When it is cool, he wades out, and becomes hard & brave.
Discovers sources of Running River and floats out through Fro[nt] D[oor] in a golden bowl.
Found by the scouts of the Lake-Men.”
Did PJ do that on purpose for that reason? Did he come across that in combing through material and decide to have a very oblique reference to it? It wouldn't surprise me one bit, considering the part about Gandalf “not remembering” the names of the Blue Wizards in AUJ. It's not material he has the rights to, but it's not a very obvious one if it is. It still made me wonder.
There were also things I'd have liked to have seen that were left out—unlike in AUJ, in which he did not leave anything important out. But this was the middle movie, always the weakest link in a movie trilogy because of the necessity of loose ends to tie up in the last installment.
One other thing disappointed me. The breakneck pace of the movie and the accelerated timeline left no time for singing Dwarves. I had really hoped to hear them sing “The Wind Was on the Withered Heath” the same way they sang “Over the Misty Mountains” in AUJ. Because, really, those Dwarves can sing! And it would have made an awesome ending song, though I do love the song they chose.
So am I somewhat disappointed? Yes. But am I all upset and angry? No. Will it be easy to write fanfic for this particular cinematic fanfic? No. Will people be doing it anyway? Yes.
And I am still looking forward to next December.
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1468816_703700716315490_2092085950_n.jpg
Now for some spoilery stuff, behind the cut:
Before LOTR came out in the movies, I went looking for spoilers because I wanted to dampen down any expectations I might have. I did not want to go in to see it too hyped up, and then walk out all sad and feeling cheated. (Blame Ralph Bakshi for that.) The result was that when the parts I ended up hating came along, I was ready to find a way past them. And when I later discovered fanfic, I realized that's what movie-verse is: an AU fanfic.
So I did the same things for TH. I looked for spoilers and found things that might bug me, and was ready to let them slide off my back. AUJ, as a result was a very pleasant experience.
With DOS, there were a lot more things I hated to see, and a few places where I actually laughed when it wasn't supposed to be funny. I was expecting Tauriel to be a Mary Sue, and so was somewhat pleased that she wasn't as bad as I had feared she'd be. Lots of plot lines and extraneous material I did not care for. BUT--
I was still able to enjoy it over all; I knew I'd both love AND hate it, and so it proved to be true. I don't quite love it as much as AUJ, and definitely don't love it as much as LOTR. BUT: it's got a long way to go before I would hate it as much as I do Bakshi's LOTR!
As an adaptation, it's meh. As a movie, it was a lot of fun. As a fanfic, it's a runaway AU!
The thing is though, it's going to be a lot harder with this one for fanfic writers to blend the book and movie than it is for fanfic writers to blend LotR (the book) and LOTR (the movie).
First off, stuff I LOVED. Here are some of the things I thought were great:
I loved the flashback to Gandalf's meeting with Thorin in Bree. I especially loved the bit when the two implied bounty hunters backed off at Gandalf's arrival.
The music! The music was awesome. Howard Shore for the win, once more.
Beorn (though he wasn't quite what I'd always imagined. Apparently I was influenced by the Bros. Hildebrandt's version of him—even though I did not usually care for their depictions of characters. But that's what I see when I imagine him. I also loved the look of his hall; though I would have liked to see the dog and pony show as in the book, I already knew that wouldn't happen, so it was nice to see the nod to Beorn's animals anyway, even if they didn't serve at the table!
I also liked the look of Thranduil. I knew the actor's name, but was not familiar with any of his other work. But physically he was much like I expected, and he seemed very other-worldly and Elvish.
Mirkwood was awesomely creepy, though not quite as dark as I've always imagined. The scene with Bilbo and the butterflies was one I was awaiting with great anticipation, and it was SO worth it! That beautiful expression of delight on Bilbo's face as he breaks through the trees was marvelous, it made me grin so hard! Easily my favorite shot in the movie!
Martin Freeman's performance as Bilbo continues to blow me away. I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but frequently I saw expressions on his face, or ways that he moved, that seemed to echo Billy Boyd's performance as Pippin without actually imitating it. It seemed to me to really emphasize his Tookishness.
Ian McKellan kicked Gandalf up a notch. I love seeing him in fighting mode.
The spiders were really cool and very scary. Smaller and faster than Shelob, but sort of made creepier by the fact that there were hordes of them! Bilbo being even more awesome than ever. Loved the way he went after the spiders, and loved his rescuing the Dwarves. His panic when he realized he forgot to get himself out was adorable and reminded me of book-Bilbo a lot!
The Elven-king's Hall was really cool, too! Very much the way I'd imagined it.
Tauriel? Well, I have to admit I kind of like her as a character, though I have some issues with the storyline they gave her. But I'll get to that later.
I liked Legolas being shown as younger and more naïve than in LOTR. He's on a learning curve here. I did get a giggle out of him confronting Gloin with the picture of little Gimli! If he only knew!
Laketown was awesome—I can't recall the name, but there was a fantasy series I once read about that had a town set on the water like that, very labyrinthine. I liked the idea of giving Bard more of a role, and his character being a sort of freedom fighter was appropriate; I also liked the backstory of his kids and him being widowed.
Gandalf and Radagast make a good team, and I was glad to see Radagast still helping. Gandalf in a trap and unable to meet up when he had promised.
I though Bilbo figuring out the keyhole was really neat, too!
SMAUG!!!!!!!!! Smaug the Magnificent! Smaug the Greatest of Calamities! Smaug! Smaug! Smaug!
There were lots of other things I liked, little small things such as all the nods to LOTR, which gives the whole franchise a sort of sense of continuity. And little details that made me smile like the bumblebees waking Bilbo up, or the coin dropping out of his cuff when they were running from the dragon. (I mean he was sliding all around through that gold—of course some of it probably got stuck in his clothing. Oh—and I have to add I absolutel was impressed with Balin in this one, expanding on his “wise old friend” from the first movie, and becoming a real friend to Bilbo, and willing to remonstrate with Thorin for his lack of concern: “His name is BILBO!” I kind of cheered a little bit when he said that.
Now On The Other Hand:
Things that I really did NOT like:
I know very well that it was necessary to truncate the storyline, and to show things happening a little sooner. BUT I was quite disappointed that we did not see more of the journey in Mirkwood. It would not have been hard to have indicated a passage of time and show the Dwarves lost and hungry, and show that it took them a while to get through Mirkwood. It's done all the time in movies—they can show years passing in about one minute. So it would not have had to make the movie longer. Instead they have the Dwarves and Bilbo all acting as though they are drugged or something. That part was just weird!
I'm not a fan of the Evil!Thranduil thing. That, I suppose, is a matter of taste and interpretation, but I'd really rather have seen him a bit more reasonable and less bloodthirsty. His attitude bordered on being a little less than sane in places.
OK, the barrel thing. This was something I had been looking forward to. It started out well with Bilbo getting the barrels out, but then PJ upped the stakes by making it that they are not only being chased by the Elves, but the Orcs too. And then Kili gets stuck with a “Morgul arrow”?!? A MORGUL arrow? Oh come ON! The least PJ could have done is come up with something different! And Kili just being a little pale and weak, but still managing to fight just fine and walk around everything right up until Thorin decides to leave him behind. Uh-uh. No. Just NO!
And this is where the whole Tauriel ambivalence comes in. I liked her determination to follow the Dwarves and the Orcs; I loved her whole fighting thing, and her conversation with Kili about the stone and about the starlight was lovely. But curing him with athelas? Uh, no. Athelas doesn't work that way. * sigh * I'm sorry, but cute as Kili is, he is not Frodo. Having this particular thing in there felt to me like it was de-valueing the Ringbearer. Plus athelas is not just something anyone can just pick up and use like that. So unless we discover that Tauriel has Luthien somewhere in her ancestry, this doesn't fly with me.
And why the HECK did PJ decide to split the party up? What point was served by leaving several of their members back in Laketown? That was not cool at all.
While I really loved seeing Gandalf poking around in Dol Goldur, I did not much like Sauron flashing like a Christmas light! I wouldn't have minded so much just one brief flash, or even two. But that whole blinking thing? Another Uh-uh.
And then there was the Lonely Mountain. The Bilbo parts with Smaug were awesome, though I didn't understand why he kept taking the Ring off. But once the Dwarves got involved it just went totally downhill, like a runaway roller-coaster. I will admit that some of the special effects were neat to watch, but it was during this part that I kept finding myself giggling at things that weren't supposed to be funny, just from the sheer impossibility of them. They were all running around, berserk, and not really doing anything useful.
Now there were a few things I was puzzled over, and can't decide how I feel about them. But they were all things I'd think of as “loose end” sorts of things that might make sense next December. So I will leave them be until then and see how they turn out.
There was one thing, however, that made me wonder about something. As a plot element in the movie, all those rivers of melted gold and Thorin floating along on it made no sense at all. But for me, well it reminded me of something, a passage from a draft that JRRT rejected for The Hobbit early on, one in which Bilbo is the one to slay the dragon, and then floats along a river of dragon blood in a golden cup. Here's the quotation, from a discarded early first draft outline:
”Bilbo puts on ring and creeps into dungeon, and hides. Dragon comes back at last and sleeps exhausted by battle.
Bilbo [takes>] plunges in his little magic knife and it disappears. he cannot wield the swords or spears.
Throes of dragon. Smashes walls and entrance to tunnel. Bilbo floats away in a golden bowl on D.'s blood, till it comes to rest in a deep dark hole. When it is cool, he wades out, and becomes hard & brave.
Discovers sources of Running River and floats out through Fro[nt] D[oor] in a golden bowl.
Found by the scouts of the Lake-Men.”
Did PJ do that on purpose for that reason? Did he come across that in combing through material and decide to have a very oblique reference to it? It wouldn't surprise me one bit, considering the part about Gandalf “not remembering” the names of the Blue Wizards in AUJ. It's not material he has the rights to, but it's not a very obvious one if it is. It still made me wonder.
There were also things I'd have liked to have seen that were left out—unlike in AUJ, in which he did not leave anything important out. But this was the middle movie, always the weakest link in a movie trilogy because of the necessity of loose ends to tie up in the last installment.
One other thing disappointed me. The breakneck pace of the movie and the accelerated timeline left no time for singing Dwarves. I had really hoped to hear them sing “The Wind Was on the Withered Heath” the same way they sang “Over the Misty Mountains” in AUJ. Because, really, those Dwarves can sing! And it would have made an awesome ending song, though I do love the song they chose.
So am I somewhat disappointed? Yes. But am I all upset and angry? No. Will it be easy to write fanfic for this particular cinematic fanfic? No. Will people be doing it anyway? Yes.
And I am still looking forward to next December.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2013-12-15 10:57 pm (UTC)ETA: I like your feet!
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 01:36 am (UTC)Oh--I knitted those feet last year for the midnight first showing of AUJ. This year I unraveled the cuffs and re-knitted them to have a little more flexibility in the cast off. They are knitted "toe-up" and the hobbit toes are knitted separately.
I want to write up the pattern as a tutorial, but I'm having trouble deciphering the notes I made as I knitted them, and I may need to make a new prototype to figure it out again.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 01:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 02:40 am (UTC)I'm just upset...I've prepped myself too
Date: 2013-12-15 11:09 pm (UTC)I was accepting of shortened scene with Beorn, the shortened Mirkwood scene AT first but then i saw what was put instead post Lake-town and i just... am confused, just CONFUSED.
I am not canon police by far. I agree with deviations but deviations that do not add anything is not worth having. As a fanfction AU, PJ did that but that is not what some fans want. It seems like most are in favor of his changes but i don't think they were for the better.
If it were more faithful, he would have truncated Lake-town, made no Fili/Tauril healing scenes, had the worm die in this episode and left us with the siege of Erebor in which i kind of expected.
I've talked with several fans about it and it seems like majority is treating this as a fanfic. However, is that really the expectation you are left with? You want a classic to be adapted,but PJ manages to mangle things that shouldn't be mangled, manipulated to something unrecognizable. I don't even think this movie had anymore Tolkien in it. Are the deviations just to make more money by elongating the movies? Are the deviations because they needed more action? I think there is too much action in this film and not enough plot development and character development of the dwarves. Bard and Thranduil were fine but the book moment they held on to like giving the dwarves a "warm welcome" is what i liked. Lake-town shouldn't have been so dark in the first place in my opinion. Seemed more dangerous and dark and it wasn't like that in the book.
I wished for deviations that made sense; i just thought the deviations were like fanfiction and if PJ wanted to make fanfiction, just don't put Tolkien's name on there anymore.
I'm glad you liked it and hated it. I was wondering what your reaction was going to be. I think im' the worse and i dont' even know why. I guess my expectations were too high but given what i've seen with spoilers, i still thought it would be quite epic. :sigh:
A second viewing is in order when i get my emotions in check. :)
Re: I'm just upset...I've prepped myself too
Date: 2013-12-16 01:32 am (UTC)And I've seen faithful word-for-word adaptations of some books that were dead boring.
And I've seen some that fall in between. To my mind PJ does fall in between. I know that he loves Middle-earth and the stories Tolkien gave us; in LOTR he mostly upheld the basic story as it was, with a few additions and some timeline complications, and some decisions that were head-scratchers. But with that book he HAD to truncate and delete because of its very length. He added stuff, but he couldn't go overboard.
I think the flaws in PJ's TH are from an excess of enthusiasm. Contrary to what many believe the three movies weren't made because of money. They were made because PJ did not want to leave out a lot of things he'd filmed. IMO, he simply did not want to finish playing in M-e, he wanted to keep it going as long as he could. Because TH is a shorter book, he had a lot more room, and I won't deny that I think he made several poor decisions.
I knew as soon as it was being expanded that it was going to be a huge fanfic, and a very AU one at that.
A second viewing may help. And (as I often do when I want to rant at PJ) it helps to remind yourself of what things you do like about his cine-verse. I always say I can forgive him any number of things for introducing Howard Shore into Middle-earth. I'd add to that, I can also forgive him a lot of things for giving me Martin Freeman's Bilbo.
Plus, he's NOT Ralph Bakshi...
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 05:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-15 11:37 pm (UTC)Martin Freeman's performance as Bilbo continues to blow me away. I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but frequently I saw expressions on his face, or ways that he moved, that seemed to echo Billy Boyd's performance as Pippin without actually imitating it. It seemed to me to really emphasize his Tookishness.
That makes me very happy.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 01:40 am (UTC)I noticed some of that in AUJ (especially in the scene where he's trying to psych himself up to save Thorin at the end, it reminded me of Merry and Pippin before the Black Gate in ROTK) and so this time I kind of watched for it. As I said, I don't know if he's doing it on purpose or not, but I really like it!
no subject
Date: 2013-12-15 11:39 pm (UTC)Yeah, the morgul blade thing felt so wrong. *shakes head*
And despite not enjoying this film quite as much as the first, I will still be very much looking forward to the next one!
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 01:42 am (UTC)"And despite not enjoying this film quite as much as the first, I will still be very much looking forward to the next one!"
Not happy
Date: 2013-12-16 02:27 am (UTC)It was too fast moving – all boys action/adventure stuff with no feel-good moments or character interaction. We didn't mind Tauriel or Legolas, although we both lolled at the dwarf surfing! Really! And, as you say, the dwarf/dragon scene was ooc and way too long!
Lesley's Beta mode was hackling something rotten, there were so many plot holes! Very little actually made sense. The athelas – indeed! Thorin and Thranduil being so grim. Bofur oversleeping?? The dwarves giving up at the gate?? Kili and Co going to Bard for help? Why? The Master and townsfolk are all for them now! And so many more I forget half of them now.
So disappointed in the Mirkwood part. No thanks given to Bilbo for his rescue. No partying elves. No forbidding darkness and creepy red eyes. They could have made so much more of this part and left out the dwarf/dragon rubbish!
One thing I'm wondering... is PJ going to perhaps fake Kili's (and possibly Fili's) death and have him instead run off with Tauriel? Maybe just to keep the fans happy? After all, it does, as you say, seem more like an AU fanfic!
Re: Not happy
Date: 2013-12-16 02:49 am (UTC)The funny thing is, I did still enjoy it overall. I think most of the credit for that goes to Martin Freeman and Howard Shore.
I hope that the last movie will return things to the original path. I expect it probably will, but I won't be shocked if it doesn't.
BTW, I recently finished reading a long and promising AU that took a left turn into darkness. So, with such a recent experience of something worse, I guess that made me cut PJ a little slack.
It's good to hear from you! Give Marigold my love!
Re: Not happy
Date: 2013-12-16 03:43 am (UTC)These are such stupid things! After all the care they take with the special effects costumes, casting, design etc. you'd think they could just get the script right!
Re: Not happy
Date: 2013-12-16 03:55 am (UTC)But his scripts have always had problems, both in any dialogue that did not come straight from the books, and in plotting.
It's why I rarely use events from movie-verse in my fic. Props, visuals,physical appearances, yes. Events, very rare, and only if they don't contradict the book. And I sometimes like to tweak his nose a little by making fun of some of his ideas. ;)
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 06:30 pm (UTC)Anything possible in next movie because it's big AU fanfic.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 03:26 am (UTC)I think we're in the minority, in not being fans of the Evil!Thranduil thing. Most people really liked the character, and I didn't like him _at all_, so that's a mismatch. And yes, totally, Tauriel would have no knowledge of athelas. That's an Elrond Rivendell thing, and the Mirkwood Elves were estranged from them, at least having only sporadic communication. I don't see where Tauriel would have picked up this skill.
Not upset, just disappointed that it wasn't a worthy addition to Middle-earth in my book. I'll see the third one, but I won't see this one again. Not even for the dragon. :)
no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 04:02 am (UTC)As to Thranduil, I've gotten spoiled I suppose, by some very good Mirkwood fic writers, such as Jael, daw the minstrel, and so on. And I wouldn't have minded him being a bit sinister, since there's nothing hard and fast about his character (not even a name in TH). But I dunno, in this movie he just seems a little off. Like he's not quite in his right mind.
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Date: 2013-12-19 03:03 pm (UTC)I would like to hear your report after you get the DVD. After fast-forwarding, how long is the movie, the "good bits" version? I'm thinking 45 minutes. :)
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Date: 2013-12-16 07:56 am (UTC)I'm glad you mention the last battle and floating on molten gold. Absolutely impossible!!! Gold's melting point is 1064C (1947F). Does PJ really think that someone could survive standing and breathing(!!!) just a few centimeters next to such temperature?!?!
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Date: 2013-12-24 12:13 am (UTC)Yes, I don't think I will ever be quite as fond of this set of movies as I was with LOTR. I like it over all, and some little parts I do love; but there are definitely parts I hate and parts that I just don't like.
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Date: 2013-12-24 10:29 am (UTC)Well, the thing is, Tolkien was a linguist and while he was good in his field of work, he had absolutely no knowledge about many other things. Believe me, no one can survive that heat. Not even much lower temperatures, in fact. What do you use for heating at home? I have a furnace (is that the right word for the small furnace that you use at home?) and we put woods in it. Compared to a volcano, it produces veeeeeeeery low temperatures. And yet, while the fire is burning, I feel the strong heat on my face if I try to stand close and watch the fire, and it is very hard to endure being closer than half a meter.
If you were close to the volcano, you'd be dead. Period.
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Date: 2013-12-24 01:39 pm (UTC)The difference between JRRT and PJ is that JRRT was writing a book back when people didn't care much about such things in a work of fiction; while PJ, I am sure, knows that there are thousands of people who are going to not only know, but care, about such things in a movie.
(OTOH, Tolkien was well-versed in some things; he paid a lot of attention to astronomy!)
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Date: 2014-01-05 01:15 am (UTC)(sorry for the unasked for rant. Ahem.)
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Date: 2014-01-05 02:52 am (UTC)I figure they had great plumbing both in Rivendell and in Minas Tirith. But they would not have had showers, because showers are a fairly recent invention. Or, at least the kind of showers we take today. In ancient times you could stand under a waterfall, or in some bath-houses servants might pour water over you. But just jumping into a hot shower like we do now? Uh-uh. If you needed a quick wash, you poured the water from a ewer into a basin (usually cold water) and you washed with a cloth.
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Date: 2014-01-05 03:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 01:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 01:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 01:01 am (UTC), I realized that's what movie-verse is: an AU fanfic.
Definitely. And like with any other fanwork I love (and I decidedly love the movies for themselves) I choose to pick some pieces I love for my headcanon, and happily ignore what's bothering me afterwards, when the talking-about and being frustrated or annoyed by some bits and parts is done and over with, ;o) happily going back to book canon as the real basic part. I went through this process already several times with the Harry Potter Books and films, and the basic principle is the same for me.
Like you, I feared Tauriel to be a Mary Sue and was positively surprised (particularly about her being badass and a tough fighter, despite all the clichés that go with it), though the healing scene still bugs me, but not because she is Tauriel, at least.
I'm also with you insofar as I loved AUJ better, and it doesn't come close to my love of LotR - as I wrote in my own review: I love the film as an excellent fantasy film in itself, but I miss the spirit of the book which was there with the LotR films, and I miss it being Bilbo's story. (I'm very thankful in retrospective that I never dared to give the Bakshi films a try. From everything I hear it was a wise decision back then.)
As an adaptation, it's meh. As a movie, it was a lot of fun. As a fanfic, it's a runaway AU!
YES!!!
The thing is though, it's going to be a lot harder with this one for fanfic writers to blend the book and movie than it is for fanfic writers to blend LotR (the book) and LOTR (the movie).
Yes again, but to be honest, that is not something that bugs me overmuch. I expect more creativity and ideas to come from it than the other way round!
The music didn't appeal to me much at my first viewing, but it has really grown on me by now. But this happens often to me: music I don't love at first, perhaps even dislike, might become a strong favourite after time.
I don't know the Beorn you mention, but I liked Persbrandt so much, and how he and his house was made. Too bad both got so little screen time!
I think you already read everything I wrote about Thranduil? ;o) After having overcome that dubbing-voice-frustration, I'm more and more taken with him and am currently beating down the plotbunnies with his name on...
I also agree with you on Mirkwood, as well as the butterflies. Such a lovely scene! And I think I didn't mention Martin Freeman much in my own reviews, but I also really, really love him as Bilbo, and even more so now with the travelling Bilbo he has become. He is perfect for the role - as perfect as Viggo Mortensen was for Aragorn, or Cate Blanchett for Galadriel. The Tolkien characters just look like their respective other personalities, from a former life, perhaps. ;o) And I also loved the scene where Bilbo forgot to plan his own escape.
(I have to split this after all, sorry.)
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Date: 2014-01-05 01:01 am (UTC)The Elven King's hall is fascinating and amazing in its own right, but it didn't blow me away as Lórien did. It also doesn't convey much with my own imagination of the halls, but I'm glad for that, because it means nobody will think my headcanon is influenced by the film, which it isn't. There is an idea or two I want to write eventually, and I would very much like it to remain my own idea, which it was. *g*
Agreeing as well to Legolas and the Gimli scene. I laughed so hard at the latter. :o))) And Esgaroth, oh my god, yes, Esgaroth!!oneleven! I really am in love with it, as I am with Bard. And Smnaug, of course. (I think I have to keep the following shorter, or I will exceed the alloted word count...)
About the things you didn't like: I fully agree about Mirkwood and the journey, and couldn't agree more about Evil!Thranduil. I got two of the movie books for Christmas, and in the one by Brian Sibley the actor stated as well as somebody else that it is intentional to show Thranduildd as a malignant person. I so not agree to that. As I wrote in my review, he might not be nice and be only interested in his own agenda, and as I read somewhere else, he might well be zenophobic (and with good reason) and other things - but all that doesn't make him malignant or even evil. To me this is a far too simplisitc way of seeing things.
The barrel scene I found hilariously funny, minus the Morgul Arrow (full ack to that!) and Kili's behaviour/state of health. As I wrote, done as in bad fanfic... *sigh* And yes, yes, YES to the Tauriel-healing-Athelas question! At scenes like these I feel the urge to point out to PJ that the film will be viewed by quite a lot of people who know their Tolkien well. Exceedingly well. And simply won't buy certain things.